Let it burn...

Discussion on Sean Miller and the Arizona Basketball team

Re: Let it burn...

Postby AzCatFan » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:53 pm

Lots of issues with paying players. Do 4th string bench wamers get paid as much as the stars? Do athletes that play non-revenue generating sports get paid? And what about scale? Does a player going to school at UCLA in Westwood get paid the same as someone playing in Lincoln, NE? I'm not opposed to paying college athletes, but these questions would have to be answered first.

Sports Illustrated had an interesting suggestion. Let kids hire an agent out of high school and make all payments transparent. Agents would have to register with the NCAA, which would give the NCAA some control over agent behavior. And by making payments transparent and/or putting caps on how much a school can pay a player, then at least there would be a semblance of a level playing field. Here's the article: https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2 ... s-benefits

Last, the NBA must change the one-and-done rule. It's created a situation where the value of getting a one-and-doner to commit to school is so valuable that schools are willing to break the rules. For a sure-fire lottery pick, $150,000 for one-year is a good investment given all the hype, prime tv spots, and probable long tournament run the player will bring. But if players could declare out of high school or commit for a minimum of 2 years of school, this changes the dynamics a bit. The best one-and-done guys would go directly to the NBA and get paid legally. The rest? Likely bigger gambles, especially if you had to pay them for two years.
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Re: Let it burn...

Postby Black Oaks » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:06 pm

Vegascat wrote:One significant question that I have is whether the FBI/DOJ is going to go after players or families of players for tax evasion. They are receiving payments of cash which is income and certainly not reporting it or paying taxes on it. When mamma is indicted for not declaring the 15 K demanded for her son to attend a school, that might have a chilling effect. Likewise, I believe cash transactions greater than $10,000 must be reported pursuant to Title 31. Players who received such cash may be at risk under charges of money laundering.


Question for you Vegas: If the excuse for the Feds investigating this because the institutions involved received federal money, why are the entire conferences also not under investigation? For example if a school wins the NCAA national championship with a tainted player, the entire conference shares in the revenue. Every school in the conference benefits from the tainted player(s), so every school should be punished. Why is this not so?

Second question: What participation in organize sports does the Federal government participate in? I have heard of Federal grants and programs for research, science, medicine and such, but never for anything pertaining to basketball. If federal funds are not involved in the sport, why are they investigating? I understanding gambling being interstate fraud but nothing else. I do not get it.

Bearing Down on a can of worms that gets bigger every day
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Re: Let it burn...

Postby Vegascat » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:27 pm

Black Oaks wrote:
Vegascat wrote:One significant question that I have is whether the FBI/DOJ is going to go after players or families of players for tax evasion. They are receiving payments of cash which is income and certainly not reporting it or paying taxes on it. When mamma is indicted for not declaring the 15 K demanded for her son to attend a school, that might have a chilling effect. Likewise, I believe cash transactions greater than $10,000 must be reported pursuant to Title 31. Players who received such cash may be at risk under charges of money laundering.


Question for you Vegas: If the excuse for the Feds investigating this because the institutions involved received federal money, why are the entire conferences also not under investigation? For example if a school wins the NCAA national championship with a tainted player, the entire conference shares in the revenue. Every school in the conference benefits from the tainted player(s), so every school should be punished. Why is this not so?

Second question: What participation in organize sports does the Federal government participate in? I have heard of Federal grants and programs for research, science, medicine and such, but never for anything pertaining to basketball. If federal funds are not involved in the sport, why are they investigating? I understanding gambling being interstate fraud but nothing else. I do not get it.

Bearing Down on a can of worms that gets bigger every day


1st Question: I'm not sure that the institutions receiving federal money is the "excuse" for the investigation. I think the reason for the investigation is that the FBI believes crimes have been committed. Whether this is a crusade to cleanup a cesspool, or simply a convenient target of opportunity, is unknown. However, no crime is committed by all of the schools in a conference receiving monies in connection with a revenue-sharing agreement.

2nd Question: It's not an issue of the Federal Government participating in organize sports. And it's more than simply fraud in connection with interstate commerce. As indicated in one of my other posts, there are likely other crimes such as tax evasion and possibly Title 31 violations. Simply put, if interstate crimes are being committed, and they are deemed sufficiently significant so as to warrant the FBI's investigation, they're going to be looked into.
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Re: Let it burn...

Postby greg23 » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:48 pm

AzCatFan wrote:Lots of issues with paying players. Do 4th string bench wamers get paid as much as the stars? Do athletes that play non-revenue generating sports get paid? And what about scale? Does a player going to school at UCLA in Westwood get paid the same as someone playing in Lincoln, NE? I'm not opposed to paying college athletes, but these questions would have to be answered first.

Sports Illustrated had an interesting suggestion. Let kids hire an agent out of high school and make all payments transparent. Agents would have to register with the NCAA, which would give the NCAA some control over agent behavior. And by making payments transparent and/or putting caps on how much a school can pay a player, then at least there would be a semblance of a level playing field. Here's the article: https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2 ... s-benefits

Last, the NBA must change the one-and-done rule. It's created a situation where the value of getting a one-and-doner to commit to school is so valuable that schools are willing to break the rules. For a sure-fire lottery pick, $150,000 for one-year is a good investment given all the hype, prime tv spots, and probable long tournament run the player will bring. But if players could declare out of high school or commit for a minimum of 2 years of school, this changes the dynamics a bit. The best one-and-done guys would go directly to the NBA and get paid legally. The rest? Likely bigger gambles, especially if you had to pay them for two years.


That article and suggestion is spot on but the sanctimonious arrogant nerds running the ncaa will never go for it.

In another si article is a quote

I can think of one adidas-sponsored school in particular that was not implicated in the report but should probably start hiring outside counsel anyway.
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Re: Let it burn...

Postby Blue Cat » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:53 pm

AzCatFan wrote:Lots of issues with paying players. Do 4th string bench wamers get paid as much as the stars? Do athletes that play non-revenue generating sports get paid? And what about scale? Does a player going to school at UCLA in Westwood get paid the same as someone playing in Lincoln, NE? I'm not opposed to paying college athletes, but these questions would have to be answered first.

Sports Illustrated had an interesting suggestion. Let kids hire an agent out of high school and make all payments transparent. Agents would have to register with the NCAA, which would give the NCAA some control over agent behavior. And by making payments transparent and/or putting caps on how much a school can pay a player, then at least there would be a semblance of a level playing field. Here's the article: https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2 ... s-benefits

Last, the NBA must change the one-and-done rule. It's created a situation where the value of getting a one-and-doner to commit to school is so valuable that schools are willing to break the rules. For a sure-fire lottery pick, $150,000 for one-year is a good investment given all the hype, prime tv spots, and probable long tournament run the player will bring. But if players could declare out of high school or commit for a minimum of 2 years of school, this changes the dynamics a bit. The best one-and-done guys would go directly to the NBA and get paid legally. The rest? Likely bigger gambles, especially if you had to pay them for two years.


To me, it's too complicated for schools to pay players. TBH, a scholarship is a fantastic deal for 90% of college athletes anyway. But a scholarship isn't a great deal for the stars. For those athletes there is an external market for their brand. I want athletes to have access to that external market. This creates much less complication for the schools and lets the market decide who should be paid and who shouldn't.
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Re: Let it burn...

Postby JMCCATS » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:36 pm

Meh, you already have international hoops, the G-league, and the NBA. If the NBA wanted to they could create more of a farm system. There's plenty of pro ball around so open the floodgates already. Continue with any proposal that pays college athletes and at some point the question would and should be raised -- why is this being done in conjunction with higher learning, see also: the primary mission of the institutions -- as opposed to the options I listed?

BEAR DOWN!!
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Re: Let it burn...

Postby FlagCat » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:09 am

Blue Cat wrote:To me, it's too complicated for schools to pay players. TBH, a scholarship is a fantastic deal for 90% of college athletes anyway. But a scholarship isn't a great deal for the stars. For those athletes there is an external market for their brand. I want athletes to have access to that external market. This creates much less complication for the schools and lets the market decide who should be paid and who shouldn't.


This sounds like a decent solution, at least for current players on a school roster. Drop all those "amateur status" rules and leave it at that. Just like any regular student has the freedom to market themselves, their brand, their skills for money from outside sources while in school (there are tons of examples of impressive enterprising student ventures and activities to include here, but the only one coming to mind involves TDs), allow athletes to do the same. Maybe put some limits on it (I can see some things getting out of hand) but in general I think the idea is sound.

What I don't know, however, is how this might exacerbate (or at least, not eliminate) the situation of big athletic wear company money being funneled toward recruits, resulting in bidding wars, the whole 9 yards. That I don't see as a positive thing. Maybe at the same time, eliminate these big deals/relationships between the schools and athletic wear companies so they don't have a vested interest in where a recruit goes? Just shooting from the hip here, as I don't have a deep understanding of how the whole game works.
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Re: Let it burn...

Postby uafan_joe » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:29 am

So the question remains, Nike, Adidas, Under Armour are the companies providing the funding for these illicit payments, why isn't the FBI doing anything to them? Or maybe they are but so far I haven't seen anything to that effect. Kind of like pillorying undocumented immigrants for taking jobs from Americans but not doing anything to the employers that higher them.

I could be reaching here but the monies they provide have to be accounted for somewhere provided they have financial statement audits which as publically traded companies are required. To the best of my knowledge, bribes are not a legitimate tax deduction.
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Re: Let it burn...

Postby El Gato » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:04 pm

I think an Adidas rep or two were also charged. Rumor out there as well that a Nike office was "raided", but who really knows.
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Re: Let it burn...

Postby ValleyCat » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:33 pm

Agree entirely with JMCCATS. I am disgusted with both UofA football & basketball. I hope every dirty shoe company guy, every dirty AAU club coach, every dirty agent & every dirty coach gets nailed and drummed out of the sport. And that includes Sean Miller if he knew of or condoned or allowed Book to do his thing.
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